Major Modes

These are major modes. Its not in tab, this might help see the scale better.

So would u call the locrian scale a diminished scale?

no because the seventh is minor not diminished. you could call it half diminished it works well over minor 7 flat 5 chords or a half diminished seven. to be diminished the 7 has to be double flatted. so half dim is
R-b3-b5-b7 and fully diminished is R-b3-b5-bb7.

But since the 7th chord in any key is diminished doesnt that mean that scale is diminished or am i confused?

Not entirely sure why you posted this up Matt. If you look in the 'Lessons' area of the site, there's a couple of complete tutorials there that go into detail with the modes. But, if you've got something new to add to the topic PLEASE do so and submit it as a full lesson - I assure you it'll be much better utilised there!

Afro

yes. Moshzilla did an excellent job covering this exact thing a while back.

I think you'll find that Afro Raven has written one of the best modes lessons on this site. Then I've written the "next best thing". By explaining it the way I originally learned the modes.

That's what Raven was on about guys.

Mosh has written about modal harmony.

@ nullnaught
ionian- major
dorian - minor
phyrgian-minor
lydian- major
mixolydian- major
aeolian- minor
locrian- diminished

afroraven,chill he was just tryn to be helpful with this.scale box chart.

@-gsredder. i do know all of that. But i think that is in regards to the chords in any giviv key. My question was do you call those as such. I dont think you do. I remember having this same discusion here before i just dont remember the outcome.

Afro is chilled guys, he's simply stating the truth. A lot of people are posting the exact same thing. That's why he's saying it.

@ Nullnaught, there wouldn't be any other way to describe them. These are what define the modes, so the chords would be the exact same. You can spice it up any way you want though.

 Note  |     Mode    | 7th Chord Type |     Note Values         |   Basic Arpeggio



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  1    |    Ionian   |     Major 7    | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7     |     r, 3, 5, 7



  2    |    Dorian   |     Minor 7    | 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7   |     r, b3, 5, b7



  3    |   Phrygian  |     Minor 7    | 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 |     r, b3, 5, b7



  4    |    Lydian   |     Major 7    | 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7    |     r, 3, 5, 7



  5    |  Mixolydian |   Dominant 7   | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7    |     r, 3, 5, b7



  6    |   Aeolian   |     Minor 7    | 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7  |     r, b3, 5, b7



  7    |   Locrian   |    Minor 7b5   | 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7|     r, b3, b5, b7

the locrian mode is not the same as a diminished scale because the scale dosn't work over a fully diminished 7th chord. it works over half diminished 7 chords. the vii chord of any major key is half diminished the triad is diminished with a minor 7 to be fully diminished it would have to be a dim 7 which is one half step lower.

@null Thanks for the mention but


Jazz is 100% correct. Those 2 lessons are better for learning modes. Mine is a harmony lesson for someone that already has modal knowledge.

@matt8675 I have seen this layout before. I believe it's from My Guitar Solo.

@ JazzMaveric. Mode = chord type and not scale?

@ MoshZilla. I remember printing out your lesson because it had the modes all laid out nicely. Thats all.

nullnaught the same thing goes for chords and scales.

in the key if cmaj
the cmaj scale is maj

the aeolian mode is minor

and the locrian mode/scale is diminished.
that is the answer you werr looking for correct?

@ jazz thats a good chart.

Oh drama, I saved a bunch of guitar photos to a folder a while back so It might be from another site. Your all soo welcome, thanks for all the nice responses. Please continue.

@ gsreddr. I was told different a while back i believe.

@ Nullnaught - I'm certain you've been told incorrectly , or maybe something was misinterpreted along the way.

What Matt's posted is right - exactly right. He's showing you the modes of the major scale.

The modes of the major scale are just different positions of the exact same scale. The reason why they have flats and/or sharps in them is because they are compared to the original position. But they are still the exact same scale (in this case, the major scale) from the beginning.

Here's something to make it easier... the numbers in the brackets are the positions of the scale. I'm sure you can guess that the notes are the notes used (in this case) for the G Major scale.

G Major = G(1), A(2), B(3), C(4), D(5), E(6), F#(7)

A Dorian = A(2), B(3), C(4), D(5), E(6), F#(7), G(1)

B Phrygian = B(3), C(4), D(5), E(6), F#(7), G(1), A(2)

C Lydian = C(4), D(5), E(6), F#(7), G(1), A(2), B(3)

D Mixolydian = D(5), E(6), F#(7), G(1), A(2), B(3), C(4)

E Aeolian = E(6), F#(7), G(1), A(2), B(3), C(4), D(5)

F# Locrian = F#(7), G(1), A(2), B(3), C(4), D(5), E(6)

All you're actually doing is just starting on a different note of the exact same scale. We call them modes because if you use them properly they can sound entirely different to the original.

Does that make more sense?

@Matt, don't worry man, it's still interesting for others to know. Thanks for sharing.

@ Gshred,

Locrian is HALF diminished. Not diminished. It's a m7b5. If it was diminished it would be...

1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,6,7 ..... Which is a double flat 7.

Half Diminished for Locrian is... 1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7

isee,maybe i was misinformed also...

but....isnt locrian diminished when using triads? not 7th chords.

@-JazzMaveric- That is what ive known for years. The quetion im getting at is the locrian a diminishged scale and the 2nd and 3rd some kind of funky minor scale while the 4th and 5th being a funky tyoe of major scale. The 6th and the 1st are pretty easy to figure out.

For locrian you would just use a minor7flat5 chord.

It's the main difference between Major and Minor chords. That's why we're pointing out that it's a minor 7, which in this case is flat 7. r, b3, b5, b7

@ Nullnaught, you're going to have to play these modes - the exact same way you did with major and minor to understand this.

well my theory book says. that you should play a dim triad R-b3-b5 over a locrian scale.

Yeah, that's not wrong.

The Locrian Scale is this:

1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7

Right?

So it's triad is the root, third and fifth. 1, b3, b5.

A diminished scale also has this:

1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,6,7

And IT'S Triad is the exact same because they start the same - but they end differently, as you can see.

Does that make more sense?

Locrian is STILL half diminished. :)

ok im just tryn to learn.

Saw this ... had to add on the day I’m back fer a min that

Those "modes" (scales really , refereed to as 'ChordScale') shown above are what we refer to as ‘positional scales’, and were intended fer 'classical guitarists' so they could stare at sheet music and not hands(you can play 1-7 w/out leaving the fret) they ARE nice to know and VERY easy to play BUT most 'Modal play' uses the far more logical (for Jazz, Rock, Blues etc) 3-note per string method (you can still play 1-7 in one position). "3-pers" do not break rhythmic patterns as "pocket scales" do … In a Positional (pocket) scale you would (Maj) begin the count on E as 1 2 then move to 1 2 3, and so on , breaking cadence easily, while on a '3-per' you KEEP cadence via 123 123 123 123 ---- the stretch is longer (esp. in Modal - Harmonic Minor and most Modal constructs past 'Major' … Harm-Min, Melodic-Min/Maj, etc etc).
So; while i still teach the 'pocket'-scales to my students as an added resource, the '3-per' scales are taught first ... and for a number of reasons, such as stretching, having MORE tonal-options at your fingers and the ability to shift quickly into triadic-runs and complex-chords etc-etc.
I am by no means saying "don’t learn the little Maj-scale from 1-7"(its all one chord/scale actually) I’m simply stating that you will have many-many more options available to you using 3-pers.
A n d
i just realized some may be thinking ^^ 'what do ya mean ya can play 1 through 7 on 1 fret!?
Easy
A 'mode' is merely an extension of the parent scale(too many to count), wherein the Tonic (the 1) is used as a starting point moving to the 2nd note in IT, therefore all one need do to play 1-7 (in any modal construct) is to begin on the '1' and begin the next scale on it's (1’s) second note … IE: if F-Maj begins on fret 1, and its 2nd note on fret 3 then all one need do is begin the following Min-7 scale (in this case 'Dorian') ON that note, thus creating your new '1' and F (Maj Ionian), having its 3rd ON the 5th fret causes Dorian’s (#2 your ‘new 1’) 2nd to fall on that note. As there are only 7 notes per scale (western) the math is very easy; we have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (Maj) so the second (Maj) scale/mode begins on the second note of the major scale kinda like this:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
2 3 4 5 6 7 1
3 4 5 6 7 1 2
4 5 6 7 1 2 3
5 ...... you get the idea... It’s all the same 'musical DNA' it’s just re-sequenced for ease of play

This is quite easy to do with both the 'pocket' and '3 note per' scale systems with or without moving out of 'position'(stationary as relating to the Tonic)
This is where modal play is often skewed and/or played blandly …
There is a pervasive ideology in web-based lessons and you-tubes that the mode (I'll use A-Maj for example) MUST move up and/or down the fretboard. This is NOT true; You can easily begin ‘A-Maj’ on the 2nd Fret by playing it as:
6 7 1 2 3 4 5 or ‘Natural’-Min, Locrian, IONIAN(Maj) Dorian, and so forth. This is where 'pocket-scales' fail us -> due to their INTENDED 'positional' status, they end on the same fret-space (4-frets) they begin on instead of moving to the next modal construct via the "extra"(lol) notes a '3-per' offers.
When playing a 3-per you will END where you begin the next scale/mode, “in line” on the high e-string creating an (annoying lol) octave if one sticks to blandly playing mode to mode all the way through (as exiting as watching grass grow)I once placed a lesson regarding this here in three Modal structures, BUT it (the lesson w/ sound etc) can be found at www.carlsnow.com, under lessons (or teaching,(I forget) … The 'answer" being to skip the high (or low) E-string (6 or 1) as you move through scales/modes.

One big trap (sorry got on a roll lol) with scales is that many beginners feel the need to play them (not PRACTICE but play) all the way through. This is insanely boring … you can hear for yourself simply by singing "do re me fa so la..." down the line, over a favorite tune; kinda stale huh?
To avoid this use your two best friends... Triads and Octaves(all 8 octave shapes) to move “modally” through a tune without being tied-down and anchored to the “start high/low end low/high” (etc-etc) dogma by finding the NOTE needed to carry the modal ideas you have on any string you wish.
Another huge 'mistake' i often see in beginners learning modes is that of "this mode is here and only here"
IE: if I am in the key of F what happens on the 5th fret?? (Assuming the player assumes ONLY Phrygian (mode 3 in Maj)
In F or any other major we forget just how many chord/scales F belongs in; There is a nice F major on the 5th fret! B U T IF we begin there we begin with many many options as to WHICH 'F Maj' we are able to use. In this following F-position (frets low to high)= X 8 7 5 6 5 ... the 8 and the 6 both = our ‘1’(tonic) and so there, the F Maj actually begins as its 3rd (Phrygian) which in turn causes the Lydian (4) to become a Natural Min (Aeolian) played on fret 3, or a Lydian Dominant (Lydian w/ Dom 7, or b7) and so forth through a zillion modal structures.

i could go on but I just got a new Freddy Hubbard cd and , well, its has Art Blakey on drums....a n d Horace Silver on Piano (waa-Whooo)

More later if I return.

?Till Then?

RAWK!
Cs